Talk 2 - Interview With Craig

00:00:00: My name is Chelsea Mertz.

00:00:02: I didn't grow up in the people of praise, but i joined The Community In Portland Oregon where I taught for eight years.

00:00:10: Five years ago my husband Sam mertz and I moved to South Bend.

00:00:14: It's been a joy to be part of this women study group And I've learned a lot and I'm honored To get to interview Craig lent today.

00:00:24: Craig joined the servants-of-the-lord community in the Twin Cities in nineteen seventy-eight and The People of Praise, in nineteen eighty three.

00:00:32: He and his wife Mary moved to South Bend in nineteen ninety four after he completed his PhD in physics.

00:00:39: Craig is the Freiman Professor of Engineering at Notre Dame .He was campus division coordinator in south bend for six years.

00:00:57: Craig, we are attaching the talk that was given in twenty nineteen at The Leaders Conference That offered some rationales for having male coordinators.

00:01:07: That Talk is organized In this way looking At scripture discussing Ephesians five and Looking at sociology And finally looking at our unique culture in community.

00:01:19: So I'd like to talk with you today about each elements of that paper.

00:01:26: so first Please tell us a bit about the history of this talk.

00:01:32: There was a similar version given in two thousand six, did anything change and people have praised thinking in those thirteen years?

00:01:43: Okay happy to be with you Chelsea.

00:01:44: yeah The History so it's in The Board of Governors had a year-long conversation, discussion about the question should we have women coordinators?

00:02:01: And that included talking with men.

00:02:04: Talking with women individually and in groups lots of discussion reading the scriptures, reading lots of books and papers...and it culminated in a week long retreat.

00:02:20: And I'll say, again that process quite open to the possibility maybe even inclined too.

00:02:28: Maybe it's time to have women coordinators at their conclusion of fat was convinced that we were on the right track.

00:02:38: decisions do with this way originally is good decision.

00:02:42: so As coming out of that, I gave a talk at the two thousand six leaders conference for women.

00:02:53: That became The Basis For A Talk in the Revision Of CFS-II, Talkseventeen... ...that came out in twenty oh two thousand nine.

00:03:08: so and i recommend people read over that CFS-II talk in addition to the talk you were referring, too.

00:03:16: In twenty nineteen other things had came out of.

00:03:22: that process was a lot more attention uh...to expanding the conversation More men and women working together various teams And it continues up through some recent decisions we've made.

00:03:38: So why give The Talk?

00:03:42: at the leaders conference then.

00:03:44: It wasn't because there was a change in our teaching, but that the two thousand nine CFS too is probably not heard by everybody.

00:03:54: most members had been through CFS to any preceding century.

00:04:00: so we thought it's helpful to explain our approach and A lot of people talking talking.

00:04:08: people thought that it would simply based in the nineteen fifties or something and a lot has changed so forth.

00:04:20: It really was actually more counter-cultural, when the community was founded at that time I was there in the seventies The culture kind of convinced us to know differences between men & women So much more accepted now that there are some differences between men and women.

00:04:46: Of course, we have more and more woman involved in the workplace And it's true That's kind of our default experience and then in a work place because if you had separate roles for men and Women that would often be seen as just unjust In many cases criminal.

00:05:11: So it requires some explanations.

00:05:15: We're not a corporation, that community isn't a corporation.

00:05:20: Corporation is built to say maximize value for the shareholders or accomplish goal like educating these students.

00:05:34: so there's kind of human resources lazy fair default position that People are.

00:05:46: they're all different.

00:05:47: They have different talents and abilities And we just like to put them in positions where?

00:05:53: they can contribute most To what the organization is trying to do.

00:05:59: That's kind of work Where most people are coming from, so there perhaps a little surprise by how we were doing things.

00:06:08: But we're trying to do something different.

00:06:11: We are trying to form a new kind of society, or Christian community in which men can be women and free-to-be women.

00:06:22: And if leave that just up The kind of corporate approach will miss something.

00:06:35: We think it's useful to have some structures that aren't blinded the fact we're not just humans, we are male and female humans.

00:06:46: Well let us dive into this talk by taking a look at the section on Biblical background.

00:06:52: This is where you talked about women in the Old Testament, in the Gospels or early church.

00:06:58: So what was their goal for these

00:06:59: sections?

00:07:01: Good.

00:07:01: Well, one was of course to affirm the radical equality between men and women in creation both bearers of God's image.

00:07:11: And that kind of bold statement Paul makes in Galatians three That in Christ there is no Gentile or Jew male or female.

00:07:21: We're all One In The Lord.

00:07:24: I Was trying also to paint a picture Of...in the New Testament.

00:07:30: It's quite an impressive picture of men and women together in the ministry Jesus, kind people around Jesus.

00:07:38: He has close friends with man And importantly for this discussion was with woman.

00:07:45: They play a crucial role in his ministry and then looking at The New Testament churches and by In this case By looking at the end of letters and noticing all the names polls talking about in particular.

00:08:03: They're just, he's quite close to them that describes as co-laborers with him for the gospel.

00:08:09: they are part of his missionary team and play important roles.

00:08:15: so if one was a picture of New Testament Christian community men women working together which is kind

00:08:30: with highlighting two biblical principles, so can you comment on these?

00:08:35: The first is that we believe men and women are different in those differences reflect God's intention for humanity should be culturally expressed.

00:08:45: And then the second principle

00:08:58: to affirm that, as I was saying the equal dignity in both the image of God and his brothers and sisters in Christ because we have the same father and the same spirit.

00:09:13: And i don't think that's very controversial among us also affirming the differences and that these should be culturally expressed at their part of god's intention for humanity.

00:09:27: So for us, that's principally we have men's groups and women's groups.

00:09:32: You can do that differently.

00:09:34: We support the scriptural pattern of headship in marriage And we have mens-men and woman leaders But we reserve the overall pastoral leadership For us coordinators to man.

00:09:50: That is as I say it a contrast with HR laissez faire view that says you should just ignore male and female, and look at gifts in abilities.

00:10:04: So for example what might that looks like?

00:10:07: Well our small groups we could have group of men or women who has these interests personality types and abilities to put them into one group of men and women together.

00:10:26: And some do that in marriage, you know here are two people who're going to get married.

00:10:35: um In the community everybody has a head.

00:10:38: so we could say well So who should be the head?

00:10:43: Here I'm gonna do an inventory of talents and gifts and personality strengths and weaknesses and so Should he be her head or she'd see his head.

00:10:55: That would be the contrasting approach.

00:10:58: So next comes a discussion of leadership, so this is Christian vision of submission obedience and service?

00:11:09: You bring up the fact that in some institutions in the world being higher on the chart means you are better than those lower-in-the-chart.

00:11:18: but thats not how we think about leadership ways in which order and community differs from order, businesses etc.

00:11:31: that are perhaps more easily overlooked than maybe we haven't mentioned yet?

00:11:36: Yes well of course we say you know headship authority leadership in the Christian Community should never be about domination or superiority.

00:11:49: We spent quite a bit time on it.

00:11:54: the preferences of head or leader prevail.

00:11:58: So I think some people will react to whole idea leadership, a headship authority because they think reflexively that it's domination.

00:12:10: you're not the bossamie quite right?

00:12:14: And Jesus says that quite explicitly You know how the Gentiles lead.

00:12:19: They lord it over the people they lead, but it must not be that way with

00:12:24: you.".

00:12:26: So we understand that a headship and leadership is always for good of those one leads—and advancing the purposes of God among us!

00:12:38: And Philippians two comes to mind do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit…but in humility.

00:12:47: think of others as more significant than yourself.

00:12:51: So we don't want dictators, even benevolent dictators and we don t want servile obedience.

00:12:59: The contrast with the normal Orgett chart I think.

00:13:04: in First Corinthians XII Paul talks about a different kind different parts of the body.

00:13:17: It says, The eye can't say to the hand I have no need for you.

00:13:22: so it's a description of people together having different roles but none superior than each other always valuing one another.

00:13:34: So its quite opposite in some ways of the orchard thinking.

00:13:39: and of course first Corinthians twelve leads into First Corinthians.

00:13:43: thirteen the long and striking description of love.

00:13:49: So that's behind everything we're doing when talking about leadership, um...and headship.

00:13:55: in Christian community whether it is a family or in the community as whole Our purpose is to respond to God call us To be people And live our life together In spirit And accomplish the purposes God leads to in advancing the gospel and his kingdom.

00:14:19: The next section is order-and marriage, so what might you say?

00:14:23: To some concerns that Ephesians five deals with marriage And it is not appropriate to read this as a way that men and women relate together generally socially pastorally

00:14:36: Yeah.

00:14:36: So I let's talk a little bit about Ephesian five.

00:14:42: So it does lead with mutual submission and a call for that to characterize life together in the Christian community, And that is foundational.

00:14:52: not looking after your selfish Interests but considering others.

00:14:58: It's true in marriage The husband and wife are first of all brothers and sisters.

00:15:03: in Christ Love your wife as in the same self-sacrificing way that Christ loves to church.

00:15:19: But, That passage doesn't stop with mutual submission when talking about husbands and wives.

00:15:25: It would be a much shorter passage if it did so.

00:15:29: The question is Do we think he's on something there?

00:15:34: Something important About relationship Between husband and wife, that's not just reciprocal.

00:15:42: That would be why submit to your husband husbands submit you're life.

00:15:47: So we have held.

00:15:50: the husband does have a particular kind of responsibility to lead their relationship in family And she either wise should cooperate with his leadership in an appropriate way.

00:16:03: Again no dictators.

00:16:05: No servile.

00:16:10: We think we ought to take the New Testament seriously on this, and it's not just one passage of Ephesians five.

00:16:16: It is also Colossians three and First Peter Three and Titus two.

00:16:23: Of course that way plays out in each marriage will be different.

00:16:28: It should never ever be domination or manipulation.

00:16:33: Husband & Wife are life partners raising a family in most cases and advancing the gospel, helping to build people praised together.

00:16:45: So I think it's an important thing.

00:16:47: first about Ephesians five.

00:16:51: Now as to broader application.

00:16:55: we don't claim that The New Testament order of marriage simply logically entails That overall pastoral leadership should be male Coordinators for us.

00:17:08: We do think that it makes good sense blowing from the husband's headship of family and It make sense of scriptures.

00:17:19: your call Paul's advice to Timothy who is a young leader.

00:17:25: He tells Timothy if you want understand how to relate in Your leadership role in the community Think of your family, think about the pattern of fathers and mothers and sisters and brothers.

00:17:43: And let that be a

00:17:44: guide.".

00:17:47: There's also the fact that the overall pastoral leaders in these New Testament first-century communities were men.

00:17:57: despite all things I said... In addition to everything I've said about women working together Paul and others did appoint man as leaders.

00:18:08: I think it's worth noting that the two largest Christian groups in the United States, The Roman Catholic Church and Southern Baptist Convention both have male leadership.

00:18:21: It is not dispositive.

00:18:23: lots of groups do other ways But its perhaps indicates we're not crazy to doing them way.

00:18:34: I think if we adopted the laissez-faire approach, just let any differences that there are emerge without making deliberate decisions then pressures from worldly ideologies would end up forming us.

00:18:56: So lets turn to the role of sociology in these rationales.

00:19:02: In this section Mary Frances Barrow discussed men and women.

00:19:09: So in the sociology, what is most compelling for you?

00:19:12: And why?

00:19:14: yeah I really like uh which he said there.

00:19:17: i commend to everybody careful reading and viewing of her talk...I think it rewards multiple viewings.

00:19:28: um so I would simply say this by sociology here We just mean the reality of who we are as men and women.

00:19:39: And there is a realty, I think crafted by God.

00:19:43: Um...we don't want to traffic in stereotypes!

00:19:47: ...and we've always resisted codifying rigid norms of masculinity and feminity.

00:19:52: Femininity?

00:19:54: We say let man form men, let woman form women.

00:20:02: The understanding gleaned from the social sciences over the last fifty years supports what we're trying to do and suggests that we are working with the grain of our human nature in

00:20:15: this.

00:20:19: So, the last section is on a decision to have male coordinators within the life and culture of people of praise.

00:20:27: at end-of-the talk you say Earlier talks on this issue there does.

00:20:38: There seems to be a shift in thinking from.

00:20:40: This is the way God ordained it.

00:20:43: To me too, this is what we think god has calling people of praise to do.

00:20:48: Do you agree?

00:20:50: so I?

00:20:50: Think since I've been member community since eighty-three i haven't perceived such as shift.

00:20:58: It seemed to Me to Be A steady approach.

00:21:05: I can't really speak prior to that directly.

00:21:10: We don't say other Christian groups who do this differently, and we're talking about the overall leadership or pastoral leadership... We don' t say that groups doing it differently are making a moral error right?

00:21:33: the way we have done it, and that we find it works pretty well.

00:21:39: You know just to be clear if a group was for example ordaining practicing homosexuals as clergy We'd say Well That...that was a moral error.

00:21:54: But this is quite different than that And so we're happy to have other groups do things differently.

00:22:02: So as we enter a time of community-wide conversation on this issue, what would you recommend that we all keep in mind?

00:22:10: What have you found a fruitful way to have these conversations and maybe going along with it.

00:22:25: Good, yeah.

00:22:25: Well I certainly urge everyone to consider these things carefully in the light of scriptures and our experience over the last fifty plus years And engage with all the resources that this study group is making available.

00:22:41: i think The talks we've been talking about In a CFS-II talk those are pretty helpful.

00:22:52: So I am.

00:22:53: terms of stakes, I am concerned that we continue to attract men into the community.

00:23:01: Like the rest of Christianity i think uh... We have more women than man about forty-five fifty five and thats been true for people coming in.

00:23:14: And I think there is an important dynamic that it's worth attending to for men to be challenged by other man, to invest in the life of Christian community.

00:23:26: Of our type.

00:23:28: and...I'm concerned if we adopt a laissez-faire approach will ...men would be tempted relinquish responsibility up for the community too.

00:23:41: women say, hey listen women are more verbal than we are.

00:23:47: Many of them smarter.

00:23:48: they're certainly more spiritual then we are.

00:23:51: let them do it.

00:23:53: you know I come to the meetings but i've got other goals.

00:23:59: so Of course We need the talents and gifts of Women when in bringing light warmth experience insights ideas And make their community a fully human Community.

00:24:13: But we also need to engage men, and there is an aspirational element To this that you remember.

00:24:21: Paul talking to Timothy says if any anyone aspires to the office of overseer He desires a noble task.

00:24:31: That probably strikes us as little uncomfortable.

00:24:35: It's because We're-we don't want ambition and striving quite rightly.

00:24:43: But there is something important, I think revealed here about harnessing the energy and drive of men to accomplish something important for the Lord And i don't want us to lose that.

00:24:59: Personally um...I think too when I was asked to be a coordinator at Campus Division Coordinator I was a young man, let's say.

00:25:13: I just turned forty-young at least compared to my current superannuated self and i experienced it very much as a challenge...I really had to rise to the occasion and experience The Brotherhood with branch coordinators.

00:25:32: And you know Craig?

00:25:34: You gotta step up!

00:25:36: Gotta do the work.

00:25:38: Take the hits because everybody in leadership knows there are hits that at least they're people.

00:25:45: you're subject to criticism and People are mad at you sometimes for extended periods.

00:25:53: now my My leadership team as a division coordinator was men women group of terrific man-and-women And that was great.

00:26:03: I was also part Planning team for the public meetings.

00:26:08: The team that ran a public meeting's men and women, And we had kinds of different roles there.

00:26:15: I wasn't part of the branch planning Team for the branch meetings but we have one.

00:26:20: they've had man-and-women.

00:26:23: Entrinity has Men and Women on the But not the board.

00:26:28: so But i do think That There is this.

00:26:34: I want to be careful that we don't too quickly lose something.

00:26:38: That was...I think an important dynamic going forward, but let me say something about the whole discussion of leadership.

00:26:49: you know its Leadership is a vertebration for the body so it's necessary.

00:26:58: It's important to get this right for the health community.

00:27:02: Leadership as visible But every leader is well aware of that.

00:27:08: they're all kinds of acts Of love in the community by members.

00:27:14: That aren't so visible.

00:27:15: there's lots of heroic caring for each other caring for spouses caring for parents caring for children reaching out outside The Community and sharing the Love of Jesus sharing a heart for the gospel.

00:27:36: Those aren't as visible, but they're the flesh and blood and sinews of the body of Christ And there are less visible than leadership But their arguably much more important.

00:27:54: God sees all these things.

00:27:57: They're very close to his heart.

00:27:59: he does not forget

00:28:02: Great, thank you so much Craig for having this conversation with me.

00:28:06: This was really interesting and I enjoyed it a lot.

00:28:08: Thanks very much Chelsea great pleasure.