Talk 3 - Marriage

00:00:02: Hello, my name is Kay Yeoh and I'm a member of the Northern Virginia branch.

00:00:07: i joined The People of Praise in nineteen seventy-eight when I was as sophomore at Notre Dame.

00:00:12: .I have a PhD in historical theology from the Catholic University of America ,and my doctoral work included some research on marriage in the writings of John Paul II.

00:00:23: Since two thousand three I've been teaching scripture.

00:00:27: I've also been married to Mike for thirty-two years and have a thirty year old son.

00:00:33: In this video, i will first give an overview of some widely accepted truths about men woman in marriage as revealed in Genesis one through three and Paul's letters.

00:00:43: the rest of the talk though we'll touch on areas To do so, I will give an overview of the verses in Genesis one through three and Ephesians five that have been used to ground the view there is a God-given order in marriage which places his husband—in authority over his wife.

00:01:03: Then I'll describe some relatively recent explorations of these same passages…which instead focus on mutual submission!

00:01:12: By relatively recent, I mean prospect has published after The Founding Of People A Praise Over Fifty Years

00:01:17: ago.".

00:01:19: So what is widely recognized by Christians, it's true for men woman and marriage as revealed in scripture.

00:01:26: What do we see in Genesis one through three?

00:01:29: Well both men and women are the crown of creation.

00:01:32: in Genesis One They're created at the end to the sixth day after which God declared everything he made very good And rested.

00:01:42: Both men and Women Are In The Image and likeness Of God multiply and fill the earth.

00:01:50: Both are told to subdue the Earth, have dominion over fish of sea birds air living creatures on the

00:01:58: earth.".

00:01:59: Just focusing in Genesis one men's image and likeness can be seen.

00:02:06: they're called creative bear children.

00:02:08: families call rain rule the earth care for animals.

00:02:14: In genesis two Man is made from the dust of the earth and God breathes his life, His very spirit into him.

00:02:22: Showing both man's relationship to the Earth and his intimate relationship with God.

00:02:28: Man has told that it not good for Him to be alone and God therefore creates a suitable helpmate for

00:02:33: him.".

00:02:34: The woman is recognized as meeting man's need for type of companionship no animal could provide.

00:02:42: Both men and women are thus shown being personally formed by God and with loving care.

00:02:49: And as in Genesis one, the relationship is connected to the formation of families.

00:02:53: Therefore man leaves his father-and-his mother and cleaves to his wife—and they become one

00:02:58: flesh.".

00:03:00: In Genesis three both The Man and The Woman knew that They were not to eat from tree of knowledge good or evil.

00:03:07: Both chose to do so!

00:03:09: Afterward God's talks about their choice and suffering will come from disobedience.

00:03:15: God also shows mercy to both of them in clothing them before sending them out the garden.

00:03:21: Throughout these foundational passages, Christians commonly recognize as that God give an equal dignity at men and women.

00:03:28: Both were formed is very good And for a close relationship with each other...and with God!

00:03:34: Christians also commonly recognized it matters That God created humanity male & female.

00:03:42: Other ancient creation accounts For example The Babylonians Anuma Leesh do not bother to specify the creation of men and women, but only note the creation humans.

00:03:52: In Genesis this difference is connected with their ability to procreate.

00:03:56: Male or female.

00:03:57: he created them and God blessed him said be fruitful and multiply full earth.

00:04:03: The distinction also clearly seen in description of different sufferings that will follow upon there sin.

00:04:10: The woman suffered pain childbirth and man find it harder get food from ground.

00:04:17: Moving to the New Testament, what do Christians readily agree is revealed about men and women in Paul's letters?

00:04:24: All humans—male and female—should strive for self-sacrificing service, humility, love.

00:04:32: Imitating that way Christ loved us!

00:04:34: Famously in Philippians two Paul writes... Let each of you look not only into his own interest but to the interest of others.

00:04:48: Have this mind amongst yourself which is yours in Christ Jesus, who though he was in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped—but He emptied himself taking the form his servant.

00:05:02: being born into likeness and men —and being found in human form He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death even death on

00:05:09: across.".

00:05:11: The common call to imitate Christ, the common infilling of this spirit—the common invitation into a personal relationship with Jesus are affirmed by Paul's letters to the Galatians.

00:05:22: So in Christ Jesus you were all children of God through faith for All of You who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ.

00:05:31: There is neither Jew nor Gentile slave or free Nor is there male and female For you're all one In Christ.

00:05:39: Nonetheless, Paul still acknowledges that it matters that humans are male and female.

00:05:44: For example when giving pastoral advice to the early communities he can give specific exhortations to each or note differences.

00:05:53: thus He writes that long hair is woman's glory but for man to have long hair would be a disgrace.

00:05:59: Paul different Pastoral Advice Can Be taking into account?

00:06:03: The cultural norm and expectations of his time period.

00:06:07: So, now what has been developing over the last fifty years in interpretations of these foundational texts?

00:06:14: In the decades after people appraise this founding in nineteen seventy-one committed Christians' perspectives regarding scripture passages on men women and marriage have not become more unified and settled.

00:06:26: Indeed, over the past fifty years a range of interpretations has expanded The length and purposes for this talk cannot possibly cover.

00:06:35: Instead, I will choose to highlight just a few authors and explain my reasons for each.

00:06:41: For one—I'll be spending time in Pope John Paul II's

00:06:45: perspective.".

00:06:47: Because of the large number of Catholics on the people appraise it seems important to be aware what he has taught!

00:06:53: Also his perspective remains highly influential —for example is teaching men and women which are heart of theology.

00:07:00: The Body Series has been shared with hundreds of thousands people in the last thirty years and continues to be offered in parishes or schools.

00:07:10: Second, I'll touch on NT Wright's views.

00:07:13: NT Wright is a heavyweight scriptures color whose books have been read widely by the people of praise.

00:07:18: moreover there are many similarities in John Paul II teachings at NT Wrights' views on this particular topic.

00:07:26: Third, I've also been reading evangelical scripture scholars' writings to see if some of them are comfortable with the main points being expressed by this Catholic leader and this Anglican scholar.

00:07:37: Indeed many are!

00:07:39: For our purposes i'll highlight Marik Moskau's work.

00:07:42: She was raised Dutch reform Spent years in an assembly-of-God congregation And as a master's degree In early Christian & Jewish studies from Wukwari University.

00:07:55: Before I dive into these three authors' views, I'll take a few minutes to outline the central scripture verses in Genesis one and three of Ephesians five that undergird many of those disagreements.

00:08:07: And note the meaning behind key Hebrew and Greek terms.

00:08:11: given you overall purpose at this talk series on honing in passages used to explain relationship between men two women.

00:08:23: Also for purposes of this particular talk, I'm looking more narrowly at the relationship between men and women in marriage.

00:08:29: In this section on The Talk, I will include some brief comments about how these verses have been used to advocate male leadership over women.

00:08:39: In Genesis two, eighteen God said... that is translated as helper and its root, are used over a hundred times in the Old Testament.

00:09:00: And the overwhelming majority of times are in reference to ways God helps

00:09:05: humans.".

00:09:07: The Hebrew word for fit konegdo means corresponding too—suitable or similar?

00:09:13: Now some may think because this woman was called the Helper —this passage intends show women as subservient men.

00:09:21: Yet because this verse describes women with the term commonly used for God's help, indeed God's rescuing of his people.

00:09:29: This verse is not often used by scripture scholars as evidence to husband authority over their

00:09:35: wives.".

00:09:37: In Genesis two twenty-three The man names a woman Woman and in Genesis three thirty Adam names the woman Eve.

00:09:46: So some see this naming of woman by Man.

00:09:52: In Genesis two, the naming occurs in a context of man saying to woman that God just created from his side.

00:09:58: This is at last bone-of my bones and flesh on by flesh.

00:10:02: She shall be called Woman because she was taken out of

00:10:04: Man.".

00:10:06: Similar to English The Hebrew terms for man And women are closely related.

00:10:12: Man Is Ish and Women Is Eshaw.

00:10:16: In Genesis three, the name occurs after the fall Just before God makes clothes For them.

00:10:22: The man called his wife's name Yves because she was the mother of all living.

00:10:27: The word Yves in Hebrew is connected to the Word for life.

00:10:32: Also after the fall, God says to the woman Your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over

00:10:38: you.".

00:10:39: The Hebrew word translated as Rule is pretty straightforward used for rule govern or have dominion over.

00:10:46: however there's disagreement on whether to interpret the rule as a new and problematic result of the fall, as a protection or blessing in the midst of post-sin suffering—or is it continuation of God's original plan for husbands to have authority over their wives?

00:11:06: The latter perspective includes the possibility that the husband's authority will now include an oppressive side —that IS the result of sin—and was not in his original plan.

00:11:18: The Hebrew word for desire and nature of woman's desire toward her husband are also debated.

00:11:23: The word can mean desire, turning to or devotion and can be used for a woman toward man.

00:11:30: A man towards women Or human toward inanimate objects.

00:11:34: It doesn't necessarily have a sexual connotation nor negative connotations.

00:11:40: One more detail that has led some to perceive an intended hierarchical relationship of the Man over the Woman is That man was clearly created first in Genesis too Then animals then the woman.

00:11:53: Yet was he?

00:11:54: The Hebrew word for man here, before the creation of woman is Adam.

00:11:59: And connected to the Hebrew words for ground, Adama.

00:12:03: Like English-word Man, Adam used in Old Testament for both male and female humans.

00:12:09: Given that Adam can mean human, the account in Genesis too Before deep sleep and creation of women Is sometimes interpreted as revealing generic humanity's need For companionship and not intended to suggest a type of primacy for men because they were created first.

00:12:29: In the New Testament, this central text on the relationship between man and woman in marriage is Ephesians five twenty-one through thirty three.

00:12:37: Ephesian's Five Twenty One states submit one another out of reverence for Christ And then following twelve verses describe husband & wife relationships in connection with Christ at church.

00:12:53: and directs the wife to respect her husband, and submit to him as to the Lord.

00:12:59: In turn Paul tells his husband to love his wife as he gave himself up for the church—and to love His wife because He loves

00:13:06: Himself.".

00:13:08: The Greek word for submit is hopu tasso — literally means place or range under.

00:13:14: However it also has a wide range of meanings including exercising self-control yielding or deferring cooperating, assuming responsibility, carrying a burden or being loyal.

00:13:27: The Greek word for head is kafalei and literally refers to part of the body.

00:13:32: Metaphorically it can be turned into person of higher status Or to point an origin such as ancestor or source river.

00:13:43: And there's debate among scholars whether the greek term for Head connotes a person in authority.

00:13:49: In same way it commonly does English.

00:13:53: So, what did Pope John Paul II teach about these passages?

00:13:59: For some context I'd first like to quote two earlier popes' statesmen on the marital relationship.

00:14:06: In eighteen eighty-eight, Pope Leo XII wrote in Arcanum divini sapientie.

00:14:12: The husband is a chief of family and head of wife The woman because she has flesh.

00:14:17: if his flesh must be subject her husband And obey him not indeed as servant but companion so that her obedience shall be wanting in either honor nor dignity.

00:14:29: Then, In nineteen thirty, Pope Paul XI Throat and Casti Canubi Domestic society includes the primacy of husband with regard to wife & children The ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience Which the apostle commends in these words Let women be subject their husbands as to the Lord Because a husband is head or wife As Christ is ahead of church.

00:14:53: Then, in nineteen eighty-eight John Paul II wrote in Mulieres Dignitatum.

00:15:00: However whereas the relationship between Christ and a church The subjection is only on part of the Church In relation to husband & wife the subjections are not one sided but mutual in hearts, consciences behavior and customs.

00:15:28: This is a call which from that time onwards does not cease to challenge exceeding generations.

00:15:33: it's the Call Which People Have To Accept Ever.

00:15:35: A New Saint Paul Not Only Wrote In Christ There Is No More Man Or Woman But He Also Wrote Those No More Slave or Freeman.

00:15:43: Yet How Many Generations Were Needed For Such A Principle To Be Realized In The History Of Humanity Through Abolition of Slavery?

00:15:51: And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery in which individuals and people are subjected, but have not yet disappeared from history.

00:15:59: The challenge presented by the ethos or redemption as clear and definitive.

00:16:03: all the reasons in favor of this objection woman-to-man in marriage must be undertook in a sense mutual subjection both out reverence for Christ.

00:16:15: In looking at a variety John Paul II's writings about relationship between men women marriage One can find him using the language of mutual giving, mutual receiving, mutual responsibility, mutual self-help, mutual service.

00:16:31: Mutual self surrender, mutual submission, mutual respect, mutual entrusting and even mutual authority.

00:16:41: John Paul does the following with a verses in Genesis one and three that are sometimes used to affirm In the first half of Genesis, too.

00:16:52: The original solitude to man is not interpreted as a solitude of male waiting for gift from female but fundamental reality in both males and females.

00:17:02: He describes his original person's sleep as return to moment preceding creation so that Adam may emerge into double unity of male or female.

00:17:12: Thus John Paul does NOT use Adams' creation before Eve as basis for male authority over females.

00:17:18: Neither does he view the man's naming of a woman as his symbol of man authority over her.

00:17:24: John Paul does see Genesis three sixteen referring to a type of diminutive man, but it reads this as result in not part God's ongoing plan for men and women.

00:17:36: Such domination in His mind ought hurts woman most also diminishes man.

00:17:42: moreover Christ explains that inheritance is overcome.

00:17:48: For John Paul II, the mutuality within male and female relationships does not negate differences.

00:17:54: On the contrary each individual's unique qualities positively affect the whole relationship And these differences include differences rooted in their being male & female.

00:18:06: He writes There are innumerable fine shades of difference between love for man and that woman.

00:18:14: Neither partners can demand to be loved and the same way as he or she loves.

00:18:20: For a woman to renounce her femininity in an effort to become more like the male, according to John Paul which we renounce something intrinsic to her very nature.

00:18:29: this natural difference positively affects the ways that lives out their mutual love relationship And is true of man's masculinity.

00:18:39: Now John Paul does not provide practical blueprint for how differences are enacted into marriage.

00:18:45: Instead, He usually explains the ways in which a man's love for his wife differs from her love of him and broad and often symbolic generalizations.

00:18:55: For example he says that woman has a type of primacy because she is what in whom first takes root.

00:19:03: As one who receives Love to give Love She especially manifests The Truth That Everyone Is Love First By God.

00:19:11: Also, because of her motherly gifts she is the one to whom humanity is entrusted.

00:19:18: On the other hand The man also has a type of primacy and love as the One To Whom the woman was entrusted in the beginning And Has A special responsibility for guarding and harmonizing their mutual reciprocity!

00:19:32: The Man Can Be Characterized As The One Who Loves First In Hopes Of Return Of Love And This Way He Symbolizes Christ who offers himself first in the sacrificial love of others.

00:19:46: What does The Anglican Scripture Scholar and he writes about these central passages on men, women ,and marriage?

00:19:52: As a New Testament scholar, Wright does not say as much on specific verses than Genesis' passages.

00:19:59: He has though written and spoken extensively on Paul's letters including Ephesians five.

00:20:05: Sumer to Pope John Paul II emphasizes mutual submission.

00:20:10: Christ.

00:20:11: He discusses his headship in Ephesians five more than Pope John Paul does, and he doesn't interpret this headship as the husband having authority over his wife.

00:20:21: Rather, he sees Paul creating a subversive definition of headship—in contrast to the Greco-Roman culture one which the husband abandons his rights privileges and

00:20:32: status.".

00:20:34: He is to have a radical respect for women as fellow Christians, and love his wife with self renunciation in imitation of Jesus.

00:20:42: And he right understands Paul to be explaining in Ephesians five what it looks like from marriages to reflect the messiah-shaped unity.

00:20:52: Paul wants Christian families not just to behave differently from the rest of the world, but to demonstrate and model ways of life which reflect the gospel.

00:21:02: And which can encourage outsiders to ask how it works?

00:21:05: What does that mean?

00:21:07: He wants neighbors to be able see or hear with their own ears and eyes what this means in looks like—to live in mutual submission!

00:21:15: In other words… To live out the Gospel, the crucified and risen Christ And in reflecting on the confusion about mockery of and difficulties in marriage today, and to your right reasons.

00:21:26: The only way through is the way Paul indicates an opening line of verse twenty-one.

00:21:32: This self giving mutual submission which reflects love for the Messiah himself.

00:21:37: this provides a solid ground for his remarkable culture shifting view.

00:21:46: Like John Paul, Wright also affirms that God's intent in creating humans male and female needs to be sustained.

00:21:54: Men and women have diverse gifts and should relish the other as Other.

00:21:59: They're different in all sorts of way but with a reasonable overlap.

00:22:04: Wright further states... not as a projection of older cultural norms or previous personal expectations, which leave no room for fresh mutual understanding.

00:22:24: Now once in commenting on Paul's view of an aspect to this male-female difference and Ephesians five Wright does note the husband is to take the lead though he has to do so fully mindful The self sacrificial model which the Messiah has provided.

00:22:40: This is reminiscent of Pope John Paul II thought that the husband could be seen as the one who loves first in hopes a return of love, symbolizing Christ Who offers himself first and his love for us.

00:22:55: Mark Moscow's scholarship focuses on relationship with men women marriage society.

00:23:02: Her work is consistently grounded in scripture and regularly references Greek and Hebrew terms.

00:23:08: She's obviously less well-known than Pope John Paul II and N.T.

00:23:11: Wright, however her work gives useful insights into how some of the evangelical wing Christianity support the theme of mutual submission in marriage which is central to both john paul & nt rights views.

00:23:27: Here's how she handles The Verses In Genesis that have been used argue for a one sided authority of husbands over wives.

00:23:34: Moscow was open To the possibility That man in the first after genesis two could be interpreted as generic humanity along the lines of John Paul II's reading.

00:23:44: But then, if man in these verses means a male person she does not think that fact he has created first would be intended to sign his authority over

00:23:54: women.".

00:23:55: She writes... She was created second to highlight the fact that it was not good for man to be alone.

00:24:11: she Was created second, too Highlight her necessity Not as an auxiliary or sidekick To The Man but As An Acer Conegdo Unable Equal and Compatible Partner?

00:24:22: She also does NOT think That Man's Naming of the Woman in Genesis two And Three Implies Authority Because There Are Other Incidents Of Daming In Genesis.

00:24:31: They Clearly are not signs of authority over For Example Haggar Sarah's slave names God, the god of scene in Genesis sixteen.

00:24:42: Somaskar reasons that the name can simply indicate That someone is in a position to see something essential about Someone and signify THAT IN A NAME.

00:24:52: Thus man named The woman not because God gave him authority over her but Because he was In a position To recognize.

00:25:07: Like Pope John Paul II, she interprets man's rule over woman as a tragic result to the fall and not a sign of God's ongoing will for His people.

00:25:17: When reflecting on Ephesians five in The Range Of Meanings For The Greek Words translated his head and submit Moscow comes to conclusions that are similar to NT rights.

00:25:27: She sees paul is upending the cultural norm from men and women in marriage.

00:25:34: First-century Greco-Roman husbands were generally regarded as having a higher social status, greater degree of honor and more importance than their wives.

00:25:43: By caring for the wives' needs equally important to her own needs these husbands would have effectively elevated them.

00:25:53: With focus on mutual submission in both husband's and wife.

00:25:58: she does not think Paul is giving men unilateral authority or leadership over their wives.

00:26:04: She states, Generally speaking families function better when they are led by both parents.

00:26:10: Furthermore critiquing a practice common in marriages today that operate within a framework of male headship.

00:26:16: she writes Paul was not suggesting That it is the husband's role or responsibility to make final tie breaking decision.

00:26:25: The only time paul mentions husbands and wives making decisions he says the decision should be made by mutual agreement.

00:26:35: The letters in reference to I Corinthians seven five were.

00:26:37: Paul writes, do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season that you may devote yourself to prayer.

00:26:47: So Amosco advocates for women sharing leadership positions.

00:26:50: she does not think that men and woman are the same.

00:26:53: She recognizes real differences including biological differences But it's quick to add that overall Men and women have more things in common.

00:27:04: so To briefly conclude this talk There is wide agreement among committed Christians regarding the equal dignity of men and women.

00:27:12: Both are created in God's image and likeness, and tasked with creating families—and ruling over creation!

00:27:18: Both also redeemed by Christ, filled with His Spirit, and called to love one another as Christ has loved

00:27:24: them.".

00:27:25: However there is notable disagreement on how to interpret certain passages in Scripture regarding man-woman relationship including the relationship in marriage.

00:27:37: In the last fifty years, there has been an increased focus on mutual submission For Pope John Paul II and NT Wright.

00:27:45: this focus provides an approach for creating loving unity in marriage among spouses with unique gifts and personalities without negating differences between men and women.

00:27:56: There are also evangelical scripture scholars like Mark Moscow who agree to a significant degree.

00:28:04: As explained in Mary Faye's introductory talk, the purpose of this series is not to give any new teachings within The People of Praise.

00:28:12: Any New People of Prey's Teachings would be developed after input from whole community and a meeting among leaders.

00:28:20: The hope for these talks are bringing members into conversation that the study group has been having amongst themselves.

00:28:28: If you'd like more information on resources I've used please see the resource pages.

00:28:33: You can find some discussion questions there as well.

00:28:36: And may you enjoy and be enriched by the conversation!